Subject: TRAVELLER digest 235
Date: 95-03-26 21:05:45 EST
From: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: traveller@mpgn.com
Reply-to: traveller@mpgn.com
To: traveller@mpgn.com (Multiple recipients of list)

			    TRAVELLER Digest 235

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) The Rebirth of the Third Imperium	by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  2) My thoughts on the "magic" of virus.	by chrisb@MPGN.COM (Christopher Beattie)
  3) Re: TRAVELLER Digest 232	by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
  4) Re: TRAVELLER Digest 233	by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
  5) Re: Virus Plausibility	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 11:12:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The Rebirth of the Third Imperium
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950326103505.29938B-100000@hubble.sheridanc.on.ca>

From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
> 
> In reply to Tim Salisbury. This is exactly what I was leading to 
> next,  The Domain can spread spinward with little to stop them, in 
> fact I believe this is a GDW idea, I remember something called 
> Imperial Lines included with "Arrival Venegance", which is what I 
> base my theory on.

I have no idea what GDW is planning for in the future: after all, if they 
were so silly as to create virus...

However, I will say that there are only two reasons why the Regency 
WOULDN'T rebuild the Third Imperium...

A) The Zhodani don't want them to.
   I suspect that this is unlikely.  The Zhodani can't be threatened by 
the Regency anymore -- they have too few high-tech worlds to fight the 
Consulate -- and letting them rebuild the Imperium gives those restless 
Imperials something to do.  Even if they succeed, they can never catch 
up to Zho tech levels and populations (ie. see the U.S. vs. The Soviet
Union ), and may have a devil of a time keeping a xenophobic, 
fractured empire together -- and resources spent to rebuild the Imperium 
can't be spend building up the Jewell subsector fleet.

B) The Regency citizens don't want them to.
   This is the most likely possibility.  GDW may _want_ the Regency to 
ossify, stagnate, and die do the Reformation Coalition can take the place 
of the Marches.  And Regency citizens, as late as the 1190's, insisted 
that the Quarrentine be maintained.

   If GDW wants to, they can build around the Quarrentine - continue 
checking every ship that enters or leaves the Regency: just give the 
orders to send out the Fleet and send RQS to start purging the Wilds of 
Virus.  Or they can lower the Quarrentine de facto, by order of the 
Regent.  If a Regency decree is issued that countermands the referendum, 
you can expect a surge in the power of the Nibility, and their eventual 
re-establishment.

And the reason that doesn't stand up to scrutiny...

C) The Black Sphere.  This CAN'T stop the Regency, as sidebars in 
_Survival Margin_, dated at NE 65, talk about "The ex-Black Sphere".
I do expect fighting between the Regency Fleet and the Sphere, though 
(probably led by Lucan of Borg).

> ...venture into the wilds of the former Imperium, in a similar vein to 
> the reformation.

And what's going to happen when a CruRon from the Regina fleet (Reserve)
meets a RCES ship?

> Maybe GDW are planning this as another source book?

They're making a Regency book now: I don't know when (or *if*: apparently 
they have changed their publishing focus from storytelling + background to 
rulebooks and equipment, as the latter sell's more) they plan to set up 
another sourcebook.  Most of their background material will apparently be 
published in Challange, as it's cheaper than publishing sourcebooks.

I expect them to publish more Alien books, however.

> What new Alien races lie spinward. 

An odd question: I suspect that any spinward races would have been 
contacted long ago by IISS.  Unless you want a complete accounting of ALL 
the races.... Again, don't expect GDW to spend anymore time Spinward than 
they have to: the only reason why a Regency book is even coming out is 
because of the endless screaming and wailing of pro-Imperials like me.

> Well this is the setting that I currently run my 
> Traveller campaigns against and it's fun. It also neatly skirts 
> around the Virus and all that, an idea I never really liked. I prefer 
> to think that the Third Imperium collapsed as a result of the 
> Rebellion, chuck in a few tailor made genetic plagues, an all 
> consuming civil war and you have a recipe for the collapse of 
> civilisation, I hope. Needless to say, there are those who think that 
> this idea is rather too naive. I'd appreciate any ideas on this one.

If you assume that the Safes - the strongholds of the fractions - buckle 
and collapse due to financial collapse and internal divisions, you can 
get a pretty good imitation Collapse.  [Near the end, Dulinor's fraction 
was starting to divide against itself...] However, there would be somewhat 
more pocket empires than is offical, and more high-tech systems, too.  
Fewer vacumn worlds would have died.  All in all, a more interesting 
universe than the Offical Version. {Of course, that ain't saying much} 


> Long live Arch Duke Norris. 

"For God and the Empire" - motto, Order of the British Empire.

> Bob.

==================

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)

> You'd better make damn sure your Tigresses are Virus-proof, or the Domain
> could have a nasty surprise when they return...

I fully expect that ALL Regency ships, naval and merchant, have been 
extensively Virus-proofed.  Also, RQS would have promoted the 
Virus-proofing of most [eventually _all_] of the Regency systems, esp.major 
systems like like Vincennes (TL G), Mora (Capital of the Regency, TL F), 
Tobia (TL G), and Trin (TL F).


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 13:08:12 -0500
From: chrisb@MPGN.COM (Christopher Beattie)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: My thoughts on the "magic" of virus.
Message-ID: <199503261808.NAA21415@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

I  guess  I am probably one of the few people who liked  the
"virus"  when I first heard of it.  It had interesting  plot
potential,  and  I ranked it along with the  silicon  eating
germs  of  the  "Ringworld" series.  I even liked  the  part
about  the  living computer chips and how the  virus  spread
through  ship  to  ship like wildfire.   Then  suddenly  the
explanation  stopped and they resorted to  "magic."   That's
when the Sci Fi left Traveler, IMHO.

Having played a character (expert in computers and robotics)
who would up in a misjump because some of errors in speaking
the  coordinates  to  the other person.   I  know  that  GDW
overreacted to it's own plot device.  There are simpler ways
of  solving  the post virus ship problem.  I would  like  to
sketch out my basic idea of a post virus ship.

Pre virus ships, if you recall, relied on a central computer
system and thus was (or is you have a pre virus ship) highly
prone  to failure should a virus enter therein.  Post  virus
ships  are  now  de-centralized.  There are many  computers,
each with semi separate power systems.  (I would assume  the
computers  run off of batteries which in turn are  recharged
by   the   main  power  systems  but  do  not  allow   power
fluctuations to influence the computers.)

Pre  virus  systems also relied on an old tech level  system
called  the  "network" a single medium where  data,  program
upgrades, messages, would pass along a single communications
system.  Even the X-boat system formed a kind of network  in
which  program  updates routinely accompanied  news  briefs.
This  was one way in which the virus spread.  My post  virus
systems are still linked but specifically so.  If the engine
computer  needs  the  jump coordinates from  the  navigation
computer,  then  a  specific connection, (let's  call  it  a
channel)  is  made  between the two  computers.   Since  the
engine computer is only expecting the jump coordinate,  then
anything  else entered in would ether be garbage  or  a  bad
jump  coordinate.  If the nav computer got a virus, you  may
still  mis-jump (true even if you have human voices  between
the  two  computers) but the engine computer  would  not  be
infected.

Anyway  these  are my own two credits on the  virus  thingy,
which I think would have been a good idea if they thought it
out  a  little  more through before they waved  the  "magic"
wand.

|     _____         |Christopher Beattie |Tantalus Incorporated|
|  ___ |[]|_n_n_I_c |Tantalus @ Key West |        P.O. Box 2310|
| |___||__|###|____)|Development Division|   Key West, FL 33045|
|  O-O--O-O+++--O-O |chrisb@mpgn.com     |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
| Opinions expressed here belong to me!  |  Fax: (305) 292-7835|


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 16:50:02 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER Digest 232
Message-ID: <sf759af5.009@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>

Hans Rancke writes on TT&J:

>Harold D. Hale writes:
>>Basically I am putting in my two credits worth.
>
>And very wellcome you are too. Only, try to make a little more clear
>when you're speaking about the official Traveller universe and when
>you are speaking about your own private version. For my own part I
>speak of the official version unless noted (My own version makes a lot
>more sense, at least to me ;-).

   As previously stated, Loren Wiseman is the official company man
around here. When he speaks, it#s as official as anything is likely to get.
When I speak, I#m giving you my spin on TNE.  The vast majority of the
time (85-95 percent), it is in accordance with what GDW, Inc. has to say.
On those rare occasions that it is not, I give you what I think makes
sense.  I compose my posts to this mailing list at my keyboard and fire
them off after a quick spell check.  Only rarely do I have Traveller
reference material on hand at the time I#m writing my response.
Therefore, when I say it, it#s probably right, but when Loren says it,
it is gospel.  Is that enough of a disclaimer?

>If you have access to some chips, yes. In the _official_ universe we
>are told that you can't get hold of those chips, because they are fried
>to a crisp if anyone tries to open one of those tamperproof boxes. So
>no chips to begin with.

   No self-destruct mechanism is fool-proof.  It might be a Formidable
task (electronics, demolitions, and whatever other skill might apply)
but not an impossible (note small #I#) one.

>Because supposedly you wouldn't have any breeding population to
>start your program with.

   Successfully crack open one box and you#ve got enough.  Let the
genetic research types take it from there.

>We know that it took the Imperium 20 years to do so, because we are
>told so in _Survival Margin_.

   Because they were working from ground zero.  Anyone who
successfully opens a box will have saved most of that time.

>>>The Jews after their captivity in Babylon.
>
>Does the word 'captivity' have any sort of connotations to you? It
>doesn't quite bring the phrase "having established themselves
>comfortably in exile" to my mind.

   But by the time they were ready to move back, they had done just that.
Also while they were in exile, they picked up on this new idea about
how God had created everything in six days.

> For a counterexample I'll give you the Jews in Egypt now that we've
>turned to biblical myths.

   No myth, the Jews really did migrate.  The #why# part is a bit
unclear from the historical (non-Biblical) perspective in the case of
Egypt.  One account I'm aware of had them as apart of a group of
Semitic tribesmen that invaded the region (thus Moses really would
have been an Egyptian prince), but were later kicked out.

>>   I'm not saying that there won#t be a significant percentage of the
>>population that consider consider themselves to be Homeians and not
>>Terrans, but the overwhelming majority would refer to themselves as
>>Terrans first.  
>
>If you were right then that would be a terrible problem for the Home
>rulers.  The logistics of repatriating the people of Home would be a
>nightmare.

   Quite simply not everyone who wants to go will be able to go.  Also,
since Terra was near the edge of a war zone, and there was a war on,
getting transportation back there would be extremely difficult unless
you had connections within the Confederation government or had
enough money to buy a means of transportation there. The mass exodus
to Terra, had there ever been one, would have had to wait until after the
Second Solomani Rim War was over.  The Virus prevents this (and many
other things) from happening.

>Harold, fanatics are created by suffering, either your own or that of
>someone with who you can identify. The Zionists of Scandinavia were
>working on behalf of fellow jews who DID have a hard time. I defy you
>to find an example of any people who were reasonably well off in
>exile who were really seriously fanatic about returning.  

   The Zionists of Scandinavia (and elsewhere) formed organizations
to help protect their people from prejudice.  Here in the U.S. there is a
group is called the Jewish Defense Organization.  Along with its mission
of protecting Jews, it provides teaching and information about the
Jewish faith and encourages Aliyah, or immigration to Israel.

   The Cubans in southern Florida, so far as I know, are still planning
on having a major party in the streets of Havana the day after Castro
dies.

>At least someone with access to the UPPs of Aldebaran Sector could
>tell us the present-day figures. Anybody have them handy?

   Stats for Home in 1120 are: A86699A-E


Hugh Foster writes:

>Residents of this list may have been observing me posting messages of
>dubious relevance.

   That hasn#t stopped any number of other people from posting here
now has it?  :)  Hey! I heard that!


Bob Brown writes about Norris and the Regency:

>Am I just being to simplistic here, to me Norris is a pretty strong  power
>after the Virus. What do you think? 

   The Regency is in an excellent position to reestablish the Imperium.
Norris was arguably one of the best statesman in human history, and he
was able to see his territories through two major invasions and the
Virus.

Two thoughts leap to mind, however....

   Is the current Regent as capable?  Just because Grandpa was a great
leader doesn#t mean that the grandson/granddaughter is even one tenth
as competent.  A number of former kingdoms (and current ones) in
Europe  (and other select locations) will testify to that fact.

   The assumption is that the peoples of the old Imperium *want* to
be part of a new one.  It is quite possible that the Regency will
run across many worlds that aren#t interested in joining, the
Reformation Coalition being one group I can name immediately.
It would take some interesting circumstances for those two groups
to see eye to eye long enough to form a political alliance.


Harold



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 17:59:20 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER Digest 233
Message-ID: <sf75ab2c.010@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>

Mike Basinger asks:

>What is the release schedule for GDW for the next few monthes, I
>have  heard about the Vampire Sourcebook, Aliens of the Rim, and
>The Regency  Sourcebook.
>
>Any of these going to be out in the near future?

Note to Hans Ranke: The following is not IMHO....

Vampire Sourcebook:  Last I heard, August.

Aliens of the Rim:  Out right now.  I received an ad from GDW
concerning it this weekend.

The Regency Sourcebook:  Early summer, possibly June.

   As always, Loren will come in and clear up things if I I#m wrong.  :)


Michael T. Richter writes:

>The number of architectures, both software and hardware, has been
>INCREASING with the development of computer technology, not
>reducing!

  Perhaps, but today I can plug a DOS disk in my Mac, and ten years
ago that feat was impossible.  Also, I can create a document in
MacWrite, save it to a DOS disk, bring it up the next day for editing
in Microsoft Word, and then print it that evening using WordPerfect.
While the number architectures may be increasing in 1995, they are
also becoming increasing compatible.  Who is to say one day they
won#t all merge?

>I can buy off on FTL travel and not on Virus for two reasons:
>
>1) I am not intimately familiar with the physics which makes it
>impossible.  I can thus very comfortably ignore the silliness.  

   One word: Einstein.  Basically you don#t have to know all that much
about physics it know that unless he was at least partially incorrect
in his analysis, we are stuck at sublight speeds.  Modern science-fiction
gets around the problem with #wormholes#, #jumpspace#, #hyperspace#,
#stargates#, #warpfields# and other interesting ways of saying, #well
Einstein may have been correct for the most part, but this is what we
discovered (fill in the blank) years later that made FTL travel possible#.

>I am intimately familiar with the technology field VIrus supposedly
>operates in.  I cannot, therefore, as comfortably drop it.  

   That#s precisely what I#m implying.  You seem too ground in what
that device can do in front of you now, as opposed to what a similar,
much more advanced device could do for you thousands of years from
now.

>That, combined with the social stupidities surrounding Virus, means I
>simply cannot suspend disbelief when Virus is mentioned.

   We are all of course entitled to our own humble opinions here, and
as I have said of another subject area, if the #Official# line of
thinking is doesn#t exactly match up with what you had in mind, then
take the TNE manual and go out and create a universe that does
(or modify the existing one to suit your needs).  I just can#t help but
feel that you are dismissing the official storyline out of hand because
you didn#t like the way the story #ended#.


Harold




------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 1995 19:30:27 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Virus Plausibility
Message-ID: <1182134270.1631855@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

Whether or not you believe Virus is plausible depends on who you are.  Sure,
if you're a computer expert you'll find a lot to disagree with, but then if
you're a computer expert you've already noticed that Traveller uses a 1970s
approach to computers which looks kinda dated now.

Similarly, if you're an astronomer you'll have problems with the star system
generation; biologists have problems with the animal encounter system;
engineers can pick holes in any of the equipment design systems, etc.

So what?  The purpose of the rules is to produce something that _feels_
plausible to the generalist.  When playing with a biologist I put in extra
affort to make my ecologies realistic.  (I certainly can't rely on most of
the canonical material, which has major problems and inconsistencies.)  When
there's no biologist in the group I don't bother.  Sure, I _could_ do a
detailed energy calculation for every ecology, compute niche spaces, create
evolutionary pathways, etc., but I don't have the time.  

The same thing applies to Virus.  In my game, I've assumed that high-tech
computers are partly synaptic and most software is grown/evolved (genetic
algorithms after several millenia of refinement); those that weren't taken
over by Virus severely damaged (looks at how much was controlled by computers
in MT).  It's a fact of (game) life, like Jump drive, and anyone who wants to
can come up with alternate expanations if they know more about computers than
me.

The key thing is that players are now required to do things, rather than
computers or skilled robots.

If Virus really turns you off, assume a crash for other reasons, or play in
the Classic or Rebellion settings, or invent your own setting.

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 235
***************************
